001 | Zach Honig | The super weird new way to travel

Isabelle Roughol
Isabelle Roughol

Zach Honig, editor at large at The Points Guy and ultimate frequent flyer, shares how he plans to stay safe on planes, how airlines have abused customers during the pandemic and why you might want to stay local. “Those of us who are used to enjoying the journey as much as the destination are going to have to keep an open mind,” he told me.


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Oh, hello. Welcome to our first episode. I'm Isabelle and this is Borderline, a podcast for those who leave home to get home. If you know me at all, you know, I've been a podcast feed for years. I was listening to them even long before we had iPhones and nuts. My one claim to coolness. If by cool, you mean super nerdy.

I'm there for way overdue in starting my own. And if you know me at all, you'll understand why the theme of this podcast is a bit of a no brainer. If you don't know me, allow me to introduce myself. I'm a journalist and a bit of a global citizen. I am French, but I was educated in the U S as you may be here.

I also lived in Cambodia and in Australia, and I am now a resident of London that makes my accent a total mess, which you will be able to hear. Okay. Finally, in this podcast, I apologize in advance. This podcast is really for global citizens. We're not very popular right now, at least among gay sub-section of world leaders and of D electorate.

But I think it's really about a life that values openness and diversity and discovery. And that is worth celebrating and defending. And so we're going to explore so many different topics from travel to immigration, the philosophical, uh, as to what it means to be a global citizen. What globalization may be got wrong.

The reasons behind the backlash. We're going to also talk about the practical of immigration of schooling around the world of building social circles in countries, after countries. And I intend really to keep this broad and, uh, bring a lot of different topics under this umbrella. So neither you nor I get bored at any point.

And this is my life. I have ideas easily for like four seasons of this. But my experience is just a subsection of, of what it means to be a global citizen. Um, so I'm really keen to hear from all of you. This is a community one. Were you going do that is to go to borderline pod.com and you can leave a voicemail, which I can.

They leader air on the podcast. I hope to have messages from all of you. On every single episode, you'll find me on all the usual social media sites. LinkedIn is really my preferred platform because that's where my people are and it's way less crazy than everywhere else. Now let's get started with today's conversation.

Uh, I'm certainly not planning to eat or drink anything. Uh, and I'm actually hoping to, to not use the laboratory as well. Um, and with the mask on the whole time, my goal would be to, to get a seat in the very last row, window seat. Um, hope for nobody next to me, I won't interact with anyone. Uh, you know, I'm hoping to really have a little bit of personal space and keep to myself.

Is that what it takes to travel safely and confidently in the post COVID world. And if so, should we even bother to resume traveling? What does this mean for an entire industry and a way of life today's guest is SAC Honig editor at large at the points guy. SAC is a college buddy of mine. He's also a new Yorker, but whenever I'm in the city, he's not there.

That's because SAC actually 200 and twenty-five thousand miles away from home last year. And it wasn't even his best year. Um, that's 10 times around the planet, around the equator. Zach is part of a community that is fascinating and a bit of a mystery to me. Uh, that's the travel miles community who are so good at optimizing, um, the way they travel and, and, uh, preferably for free sack is a frequent traveler and a travel journalist.

And I've asked him to come on to talk about the very weird you way to travel. You'll also hear voicemails from a couple of borderline listeners. About their own experience of travel during the pen.

Zach, I think you've probably spent more time at home in 2020 than in like all of the past decade combined. When, uh, when was the last time that you were on a plane?

Oh my goodness. Well, um, actually I, I did end up traveling a bit just before lockdown, so I ended up booking a last minute weekend trip to Aruba.

Uh, and that was in the beginning of March. And so I'm actually, I think that was end of February and I, I kind of anticipated. You know, not being able to travel all that much, uh, over the months to follow. And so my girlfriend and I went to Aruba, um, for, uh, uh, I think it was, yeah, it was a one night trip.

We actually only spent one night there. Um, and she wasn't able to get off of work on the Friday. So we went Saturday morning and came back Sunday night, but it was a great trip. Uh, and then I had a, another one night trip to Los Angeles for, for work, um, at the beginning of March. But. I had so many trips on the books that I ended up having to cancel.

Um, I can't even remember them all at this point, but, um, definitely, uh, some, some plans have been changed. When do you think that you'll start traveling again? I don't know when this is going to air, but I am actually planning. So it may have happened or it may not have happened by that point, but I'm planning to go to Iceland, um, and be one of the first arrivals.

So, um, June 15th currently, and I'm so waiting, uh, Some official confirmation. Um, but Iceland is supposedly going to allow, uh, international visitors and potentially even from the United States. Uh, and so there there'll be three options. You can either, um, arrive with a, a negative, uh, COVID test. Um, it was taken within the last 48 hours, 48 hours.

Um, you can take a test upon arrival, uh, and you'll get those results within five hours, or you can quarantine for 14 days if you choose to do that. And so, um, I'm still waiting confirmation on which flights will actually operate. Uh, Iceland air is selling flights from, from Newark. Um, but the guidance I've gotten is that they may not actually fly in.

So it's all up in the air to so to speak, but, uh, it could be within, uh,

What, what do you expect it to be like? I mean, are you concerned about flying about, you know, are things even going to be open?

Yeah. So, uh, what's, what's really appealing about Iceland is, is they managed to, to really, um, eliminate COVID on the ground there.

Uh, there aren't any active cases, um, and. You know, they, they cut off the borders pretty quickly. I think by the end of March, uh, you weren't really able to enter, um, without a mandatory quarantine. And so there have been some flights operating, I think right now there's, there's only, uh, up to six flights a week in total 600 trips.

Um, And then a lot of the sites were closed. Um, but for whatever I had actually, um, many restaurants stayed open, um, you know, uh, hairdressers and other kind of close encounter type services were, were closed. And a lot of the tourist attractions, you know, they just didn't have any business. Um, but for the most part, they've, they've really been able to get the pandemic and check there.

And so, uh, what I'm expecting is that once I arrived. Uh, once I, you know, I was able to get a negative result and I actually just had a COVID test in New York a few days ago, so that was negative as well. Um, but once I get that negative result, I'll, I'll be able to, to kind of enter society freely there, it seems, and, you know, even dining in restaurants and, and go to pubs and, and, uh, you know, It sounds like people there aren't even wearing masks and there isn't really any need.

Uh, I'm sure that some tourists will kind of slip through here and there, especially those that claim that they're going to go into quarantine, but hopefully with, you know, active contact tracing and everything, they'll be able to send it to get those cases under control very quickly, uh, on an ongoing basis.

So as far as the flight, um, That's my biggest concern, but my, my father's position in the Philly, um, and he's been seeing COVID patients, uh, every, almost every day. Uh, and he's been getting very, very close to people. He wears an N 95 mask, uh, and a surgical mask on top of that. Uh, and then advisor, uh, on top of that as well.

Um, and he's always, you know, he's had his hand washing protocols down for. You know, since he became a physician. Um, and so talking to him, you know, as long as I kind of take that same approach to the flight, uh, I'm certainly not planning to eat or drink anything. And I'm actually hoping to, to not use the laboratory as well.

Um, and my goal would be to, to get a seat in the very last row, window seat. Um, hope for nobody next to me. And then, you know, with, I do have an N 95 mask, uh, that I got, um, in January actually. Um, and so I've a few of those. And so, um, I actually did try to donate them. Um, but they're the industrial version of the N 95.

So there's two versions and the industrial version has this valve on the front. And so, um, when you exhale, anything goes. Right out through the valve. Uh, and so it can't really be used in a hospital setting. Um, but that's where I've actually attached, um, pantyhose to the front of it. I've sold them on, uh, to cover the valve and to protect other people.

And then I'll, I'll wear a surgical mask on top of that, but I, I won't eat or drink. Um, I won't interact with anyone. Uh, you know, I'm hoping to really have a little bit of personal space and keep to myself and with the mask on the whole time, uh, you know, my, my father's confident that I should be a okay.

That's, um, that's quite a picture of your painting, you know, if that's the, uh, you know, if that's what it takes to travel internationally for the foreseeable future. Um, you know, do you expect travel to come back to the levels that we've, that we've known a lot of steps. I mean, even I'm even thinking about things like, you know, going through the TSA checkpoint, um, you know, I'm planning to bring trash batters to.

Separate all my belongings ahead of time, put them in the trash bags. Uh, so that there's no chance of any kind of secondary screening, um, use the check, the trash bags for the way back as well, just to kind of protect my, all my, my belongings. Um, I may even do that on board, the plane too. It's just put my bag in a trash bag there.

Um, I'm going to drive myself to the airport, parked myself, uh, things I would never have considered before are paying for, for, you know, daily parking. I'm within walking distance of the airport is something I, I, you know, I'm, I'm fairly frugal, I'm a, I would call myself a frugal luxury traveler if there is such a thing.

And, um, you know, I'm, I'm definitely in kind of changing the approach. And I think that, you know, in order to stay safe, a lot of people may want to consider that. And so as long as I'm able to kind of stay away from everyone, um, you know, the, the big question is, is the bathrooms in the laboratory. I think, um, But, you know, I'm, I'm just, I'm hoping for the best.

Uh, I know that that's really not any way to, to go about it's a leisure trip. Um, you know, and I'm, I'm even going by myself so that there isn't really anyone else to worry about. Um, I'm generally not a solo travel either. I'm looking forward to it, but it's, it's definitely going to be a different experience.

I think that, you know, those of us that are used to really enjoying the, you know, the, the journey, um, In some cases as, as much as the destination, uh, are really going to have to kind of keep an open mind and be willing to, to compromise a lot, you know, airlines have really cut back on the in-flight service.

Um, you know, and, and even, so even if there was a full service offered, I, I. Wouldn't be comfortable eating or drinking anything on the plane. So yeah, I'm taking a very cautious approach. I think that, you know, everyone's going to handle it differently. Um, and you just, because this is the way I'm doing it doesn't mean that it's the right way, but it's, you know, it's, it's the way that I feel comfortable in my family feels comfortable.

Um, you know, kind of having me return, uh, directly to our group here, um, in quarantine. And so, yeah, uh, we've talked it through and we're confident that this is a safe way to do it. Have you thought about traveling yourself? Well, I, I have actually recently because I, um, I was in lockdown, uh, with my parents in France.

Um, for many reasons, including that, uh, when the lockdown started in France, it looked like the British government was not going to take this seriously. Um, and so it became a situation where, um, You know, I kind of had to make up my mind, uh, because we had no idea whether the borders were going to stay open.

Um, and so I, um, actually my father drove from France, got on the ferry, drove to London, picked me up. Uh, and we drove back because of, uh, you know, if I, if I got on the train, um, at a time when there were very little restrictions, um, it was not going to be safe for me to then be in the same house with my parents.

Um, so I, I isolated, uh, for a couple of weeks before returning home, and then I made the trip as. As isolated as possible. Um, and that in, and this was on the first day of the French lockdown. So, um, there were actually very strict rules on the ferry, um, of, uh, everyone was, uh, had to stick to their cabins.

They were not allowed to walk around. Um, there was an order, you know, each, each deck. On the ferry, you know, you were allowed to get out of your car only when told to do so, get to your cabin, lock yourself in, and don't go out again until you get to your destination. Um, and I, you know, similar to what you were just saying.

I, I wiped every surface before I let my father touch anything. And that was, I was pretty, pretty paranoid about it. Um, this was, this was the mid-March when I think we were all very scared. Um, but I took the Eurostar. A couple of weeks ago, returning to London after, after two months in France, once friends opened up and we were allowed to do that.

And, um, you know, it's, it's, it operates under French law, which mandates, uh, masks in public transport, which, um, Uh, forces companies to only sell every other seat. Um, uh, and even then not every seat was, was sold. So, um, it actually felt extremely safe on the Eurostar and I'll, you know, I can't speak for every, um, transportation company, but I think they're there.

Kind of ahead of the curve in terms of adapting. Um, and it just felt a lot safer than my local supermarket. Yeah. I mean, out here in the, in the U S a number of airlines have started by, um, blocking the middle seats, which, I mean sure. You're, you're still not really able to, there's no way that you can keep six feet of distance on, on a full flight, even with all the middle seats blocked.

Um, but I just, I can't picture being that. That passenger sitting in the middle seat right now. So, you know, so close to two other people, plus the people in front and behind. Um, I think that I, you know, I, at the very least I would feel very anxious being in that situation. And I think for peace of mind that gesture.

And it goes a long way. We've seen some airlines using kind of implying that they're blocking seats, but not actually doing it. And then you may have encountered some of those photos, photos on Twitter, um, of, you know, planes that ended up going out completely full. Uh, United for example, had been kind of promoting through social media and even emails, um, directly to customers that they were blocking the middle seats, but what they were doing was they, they were blocking the seats for pre-selection.

Um, but if all the seats were sold, then they would be sold, uh, assigned at the gate. And so your passengers expected to have that extra space and didn't actually get it. And so I think that, you know, some airlines are really building trust with, with customers right now, and others are really going a long way to erode that.

And so, yeah. I think that we're going to see some, some shifted loyalties, uh, you know, over the next few months and years, even, uh, you know, I don't know if you know anyone that's struggled to get a refund. Uh, that's been such an issue here in the States. You know, people that had planned to travel and had flights canceled or hotels canceled, uh, and actually have the airlines and hotels holding onto their money.

I actually encountered that in Germany, the hotel I booked there was fully refundable up until a day before arrival. But they still wouldn't process a refund for me. They were holding onto my refundable deposit. Um, and so I actually had to go through the process of filing a chargeback with American express.

And actually just this morning, I got an email, uh, that the reversal is permanent and that I finally have that money back. Um, but it was crazy just to see, you know, are these policies that, I mean, that was a rough, fully refundable stay and they still wouldn't give me a refund. Um, and so I think that, you know, people are going to be really hesitant to book with some of the, you know, the travel providers that really misbehaved during this pandemic.

And I understand the financial situation, but especially for fully refundable bookings, uh, to, to kind of hold onto that money like that. You know, when, when a lot of people are really have a financial need, uh, just not the way to handle it. I know that, you know, a lot of these travel providers are in such a bad position.

And I, I emphasize emphasize with that, but, um, still, it's just, I, I, I can't imagine booking with someone the future, it's going to take a while to really overcome, you know, some of the damage that's been done. I think.

Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. Last March, my wife and I packed most everything. We could fit into our Subaru Outback, including our baby and our dog. And we left our home in Brooklyn, New York and took a very long road trip to Tupelo Mississippi. Now, Brooklyn in Tupelo.

On the one hand really couldn't be more different places, but they each had something in common for us. They're each places that my wife and I call home. She grew up in to blue and we have a small house here we come, because we want to spend time with the people we love, but we live in Brooklyn. It's just that in Brooklyn, last March, things were confusing.

COVID was getting worse by the day, we were nervous for our own health, nervous for the people around us. And suddenly we were tasked with working from home without childcare. We needed to take care of our child. Uh, so we didn't think a lot about this road trip. We literally just got in the car and went.

And it was a weird thing to travel last March when not just Brooklyn was shut down on quarantine, but so is every place else. And there was this feeling of receding the skepticism. I remember we felt nervous about having New York license plates because things were so bad in New York and they weren't at other places yet.

We couldn't really stop at restaurants because most of them were closed. We couldn't really stop to go to the bathroom at public parks, because even the bathrooms there would be locked. I have now peed in a, uh, regional park outside of Washington, DC and the backyard of a Baptist church in Hollywood, Alabama.

Um, But it was a remarkably short trip because the thing is, uh, nobody else was on the road and the trip ended in a really good spot. The trip ended, um, with friends and family. And while we quarantine for two weeks afterward, we've had the joy of getting to live with them.

We've seen a few airlines even go into administration, you know, whether that's flabby or Virgin Australia or Donka, um, you know, what's, what's the airline landscape going to look like in 2021, 20, 22?

Or are we even going to fly near? It's really hard to say. Uh, I know that, you know, here in the U S a lot of people have felt more comfortable traveling, or really have a need to, you know, either, uh, you know, college students were still stuck at campus. Um, you know, even though classes are canceled, a lot of them stayed where they were and sheltered in their dorm rooms and attended class online from their dorms.

So we, we saw a big uptick in travel over the last few weeks. Has all of these college students. And they finally made their way home. Uh, and then we're, we're seeing some leisure trips as well. Uh, it's, it's really interesting to see the United States is, is really handling this, um, so differently depending on where in the country you are.

So it's, it's handled, uh, on the state level. And so each state and, and sometimes individual cities are, or counties are, are making the rules as to, you know, whether or not businesses can open. And, you know, when, when people need to, you know, Be sheltering in place. And that's been the case since the beginning.

And so we're seeing, especially in some of the Southern and Midwest States, uh, they've essentially completely reopened at this point. Um, and in many cases are effectively behaving. Like, you know, coronavirus is not an issue at all, but as far as what it's going to look like the whole landscape, I think it really depends on when people start traveling again at the close to the levels that they were before the pandemic.

And so, you know, in, in the U S yeah, there's, there's been an uptick and, and flights are full. Uh, but there's the number of flights that are operating. It's just a tiny fraction of what had been flying before. And so you're, we're seeing small flights and, and, you know, uh, Um, slight loads in the, you know, 70 to 80% in some cases.

Uh, but you know, in most airlines are flying maybe, I dunno, two, three, four, or 5% of the flights that they had originally planned to fly. And so we're seeing high loads, but low numbers of passengers overall. Um, and that'll probably continue for some time. Uh, and then, you know, that's not even really factoring in the, you know, potential hits to the economy.

Uh, and so, and people right now, you know, remain in a financial position to travel. Um, but that may change over time as well. And so it really just depends on where everything is headed. I think it's too, too, too early to say, um, Even if we're going to be, you know, I don't know when travel is going to pick up to be completely honest.

I know airlines were originally planning for summer of 2021. Um, I've heard estimates that it could be at least a year beyond that, uh, before we're anywhere close to the levels we were at before, but I don't think anyone really knows. And. You know, I I'm actually been looking at traveling more, uh, within the U S and so it's something that I've always wanted to do.

We actually booked a house in Maine for the entire month of August. And so I was able to get a good deal because, uh, Maine, because it's all really handled on the state level here, um, Maine has put in place a requirement to quarantine for 14 days. So any visitors that come to me, uh, you know, we'll need to.

Essentially sheltering in place. It's a little bit more flexible. Um, you can kind of walk around the outside as long as you're, you're staying away from other people. Um, But, you know, a lot of people would travel up to Maine from Boston, even from New York, uh, for a long weekend. And that's just not going to be possible this season.

Um, and so as a result, there's a lot of inventory on Airbnb. And if, if you do have the means and ability to, to travel somewhere and work remotely for a month, uh, it's a good option. That's definitely the vibe here in Europe. Um, this sort of return to localism, um, sometimes. Shrouded in a bit of patriotism, anti globalist sentiment, but it's like, you know, why, why do you even bother, um, going to other countries?

Like let's all stay home and, um, you know, it's, it's, it's fair and it's, there's plenty. I mean, when you live in Europe, um, you know, even without going to another European country, there's plenty to see your home. Um, and that's kind of the message. I know that's the message that the French government is giving right now, you know, summer holidays are kind of sacred and Frances were a lot of money is made in the tourism industry.

And obviously there's also that sense of like, well, if you, you know, you want to support your country, um, do stay in travel locally because we're not getting foreign tourists and our tourism industry is collapsing. Um, and so there's a bit of, you know, put your money. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, it, it's kind of, it's a new type of, kind of feel good tourism in a way too.

I mean, you've you feel like you're, you're helping people out? Um, I mean, that's, that's kind of the way I'm looking at it. I'm, I'm hopeful that, you know, we'll be able to, to resume normal life without coronavirus at some point soon, but it's just, I mean, it's, I'm not especially optimistic, I guess.

At the tone, please record your message. My name is Clara and I'm, uh, from Argentina, but I live and work in the UK and my travel experience with COVID-19 world involves a transatlantic flight to visit my family back in mid-March, um, where everything was very different from now. Uh, and. Policies were changing constantly.

So I spent the whole 13 hours of flight worried that the borders in Argentina would close. I didn't know what happened, that those were the rumors back then. And also what was meant to be a 10 day trip, ended up being a three months trip. Um, and in terms of returning to the UK, um, Basically my return involved, lots of communications with embassies and consulates and special flights and special lists of people wanting to return home, which is definitely not, not the usual, uh, peaceful, straightforward travel experience.

Um, so I'm looking forward to go back.

So I have, um, one last question for you because I know you have to run. Um, I'm wondering if you know this, this whole experience of spending what the last three months at home and, um, Has made you kind of rethink the, your traveling habits and how much of your life you spend on the road. And, um, you know, there's been a lot of conversation of, you know, should we even want the, the before world back?

So do you want your, your before world back? I think that in some ways, I do. Um, I had actually already made a change. So when I, when I first started this job at the points guy, so it's been, it's been five years now. Um, and. I, when I first started, I was, I was flying just to fly. In many cases, you know, flight reviews are kind of core to what we do.

Um, and in order to, to really capture that content, you, you have to travel and you have to do as many flights as you can, to be efficient, um, on a trip. And so I would schedule these round, the world trips where, you know, in some cases it was, it was kind of back to back, you know, I would go all the way around the world and in about a week.

Um, and so, you know, half that time would be spent sleeping on planes. And then maybe, you know, I'd get three nights of that week and hotels at some destination. And so that, that just, you know, I knew that wasn't sustainable, but, you know, I felt like I was, I was young enough and, and, you know, I wasn't really leaving anything behind and I was getting to experience something at one point.

Um, a couple of years ago, something kind of clicked and I just really changed my approach. And, um, before I, I kind of booked a trip, I would, I would plan out a few days at the destination. So, you know, and I, I tried to avoid giving up my weekends. I like to spend my weekends at home if I could, you know, with my family and friends.

But, um, you know, if, if it meant spending a weekend somewhere else, I would, I would do that and I would try and visit somewhere new. Changing that that kind of approach really enabled me to, to experience things differently and made the trip, uh, much more fulfilling, I would say. And so I'd love to return to that.

Um, maybe with a little bit more of a balance at home, uh, and spending more time with family, uh, you know, I know that. What's this is over. I don't think I'll ever have a period where I'm back here for, for months at a time, but it's, it's been really nice. Um, and you know, I know that a lot of people are really, really suffering and struggling right now.

And I don't want to discount that at all. Um, and you know, I'm, I'm thinking about them a lot. I, you know, my, my dad and his step-mom are, are both working with patients that are, you know, in, in. Situations that are far from ideal. Um, and you know, I'm seeing a lot of people try and look for the upside of, of this pandemic experience.

And for a lot of people there just isn't one. Um, and I think that we need to, to consider that a lot as well. And I am, um, and you know, I'm, I'm taking this opportunity to, to make donations and, and to help get the word out. Um, in other ways, Uh, and ultimately I feel the way that I can move most impactful right now is to, to really, um, Keep keep watching my, my brother and sister so that, um, my dad and step-mom can, can reach as many patients as they possibly can, as far as the future.

I mean, I, I do hope that we're, we're able to travel in the way that we, we could before. I think that, you know, there's, there's a lot of people that do it in a way that, uh, is fulfilling and others, you know, not so much. Um, but for people that were really enjoying what they were doing before and feeling fulfilled and connecting with other cultures, I, you know, I hope that's able to return.

Excellent. Well, thanks so much. Thanks for having me. It's so nice to reconnect with you too. I hope that you're able to reconnect with work friends through this podcast. Definitely. Definitely. That's the camp. I can't wait. Thanks. Well, stay safe and Iceland. I look forward to, uh, seeing all the, uh, Instagram, uh, stories on that.

I hope it happens. We'll see.

I'm sorry, Zach. It didn't happen. Shortly after our interview, Iceland decided that he would only let in travelers from the Shanghai area of Europe and therefore Zack as an American is not quite welcome yet. There, hopefully later this year, I want to thank Zach again for being a Guinea pig. And agreeing to being the first guest on borderline.

I also want to thank Clara, uh, Gira, Hernando, and Jessi Hempel for their voicemails. Jesse, as you probably could tell from her wonderful narration also is a podcast host. It's called hello Monday. It's on all the platforms and I strongly recommend you subscribe. It's my weekly dose of insight operation next week.

We'll talk about international students, the global competition among universities for international students. And their own situation during the pandemic. When they've had to go home perhaps, or stay abroad in the middle of a pandemic, if that's your situation, if you're a prospective students, who's worried about what's going on next year, please share your story.

Reach out again. Borderline pod.com to leave a voicemail, or you can reach out on LinkedIn or other social media. I really want to hear your stories. I also want to say a word. To the events that are happening around the world. That's incredibly important fight for racial justice and equality. I've lived in the us.

And we've seen this before. Unfortunately, this unspeakable pain, these protests, I think there's something unique now, though, in that it's traveling around the world and this event has started in a very specific American context. It's being translated around the globe to local fights in different cultures and different historical contexts.

I think that's really unique, really important and fascinating until I'll definitely be addressing that on the podcast soon. Um, if you have opinions on that. Thoughts guest suggestions, please, again, reach out@borderlinepod.com. Thank you so much. The huge power that you have right now to spread the word about this podcast.

I cannot understate. There are like three of you listening. So each of you really. Really holds the key. Please share on your social media, uh, leave a review on Apple. That's super important. Rate the podcast, spread the word. If you think this is a good idea, and you want to listen some more. Thank you so much.

And I'll talk to you next week.

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Isabelle Roughol Twitter

Journalist, podcaster, media consultant. Telling stories & building better newsrooms. Writes The Lede. Ex- LinkedIn News, Le Figaro, The Cambodia Daily. 🎓 Mizzou '08, Birkbeck '25.