If we can work from home now, why not work from the road? A laptop and decent wifi is all many of us need. "To be able to work and live wherever you feel happiest and most productive," that's the digital nomad lifestyle as explained to me by Mandy Fransz. She started on that road herself a couple years ago and has become an advocate for remote work. On this week's episode, she explains how she made it work and how you can do it for yourself. With so many us stuck between four walls, the road calls now more than ever...
Music by Dyalla.
Transcripts are published for your convenience, but they are automated and not always cleaned up. Please excuses typos and occasional nonsense, and always check the audio before quoting.
Mandy Fransz: [00:00:00] What I want with this life is to have the freedom and flexibility to work from anywhere.
[00:00:06] Isabelle Roughol: [00:00:06] Hi, I'm Isabelle Roughol and this is Borderline.
[00:00:10] I don't know about you, but some days I wake up and the walls are just closing in. Home is not a nest, it's a cage, and I got to get out. I'm bouncing off the walls. If there are enough days like this in a row, I've been known to pick up and move to a new country. Please don't psychoanalyze me. The only cure I know is to get on the road and see something new. I think they call it wanderlust.
[00:00:34] There's been a lot of those days this year for many of us, and getting on the road wasn't always an option. In fact, for most of us getting on the road isn't an option even in a good year. There's bills to pay and jobs to keep and kids to take care of.
[00:00:49] But what if you could take care of all that and still be an explorer? That's the digital nomad lifestyle. And it sounds good enough to me that I've actually Googled the cost of a camping van -- and wowza! But it's not the only way to do it. I talked this week with Mandy Fransz, who does just that: run her own business, keep a job and a career going while being on the road, wherever she feels like being.
[00:01:15]I should say, Mandy is a former LinkedIn employee like myself, and that's how we connected. She runs her own boutique consultancy, make the leap digital, and helps run the Remote Workers on LinkedIn group, which is a community of more than 50,000 professionals, both current and aspiring digital nomads and remote workers who are helping each other out.
[00:01:36]Our connection was not perfect so you may hear the occasional snag in the audio. I think that's just par for the course these days, but I've done my best in editing. Let's talk to Mandy about how she does it.
[00:01:48] Where are you calling me from today?
[00:01:51]Mandy Fransz: [00:01:51] Um, I'm calling from the Netherlands .
[00:01:53] Isabelle Roughol: [00:01:53] And that's home, right? That's where you're from ?
[00:01:55] Mandy Fransz: [00:01:55] That's my home.
[00:01:57] Isabelle Roughol: [00:01:57] Yeah . So you're a nomad who's at home right now. I imagine the uh, pandemic has made it a bit difficult to be on the road.
[00:02:05]Mandy Fransz: [00:02:05] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I'm not the only one I imagine. I've been actually back in my home country now for almost a year, but before that I was traveling like all over the place.
[00:02:16]Isabelle Roughol: [00:02:16] Where did you go? Where have you worked from?
[00:02:19] Mandy Fransz: [00:02:19] I used to work for LinkedIn in their Dublin European headquarters, um, and then I quit my job in March 2018. Um, I didn't have a solid backup plan. I just quit my job and I you know, wanted to explore this world of remote work because I just saw that there was you know, this whole shift going on with more and more people uh, you know, wanting to work remotely, wanting to have the freedom to work from anywhere.
[00:02:41]I started out in Bali. Um, That was just for a month just to explore what was I going to do. But it went quite fast. So within 30 days, when I was in Bali still, I got my first clients, freelance clients as a LinkedIn consultant actually. And that's how my business, which I now still run, Make the Leap Digital, um, started.
[00:03:01] Since then I've been traveling with my business , helping clients online from Bali. Uh, I went to Portugal, I went to California, and I lived in uh, um, Columbia as well for half a year. I traveled quite a lot before as well, but I really wanted to explore what it is to live in those kinds of countries. It was just a whole different experience to work from some place than to be there as a tourist.
[00:03:24]Isabelle Roughol: [00:03:24] Are you hoping to return to that life? Do you have other plans for the years ahead? You know, Obviously, you know, public health permitting, which is a big if.
[00:03:33]Mandy Fransz: [00:03:33] Well, um, last year I booked a one way ticket to Columbia. I was not planning to come back at all. Uh, and then I met my current boyfriend in the Netherlands, just two weeks before the trip. And that's also the reason why I decided to come back. So I had a reason to come
[00:03:52] Um, He actually quit his job as well and followed me to Columbia, to be there with me, to figure ou, you know, what, uh, what we were going to do. Uh, And it turned out really wel so we're still, we're still together. We traveled together, uh, work together from there, uh, for a few months. And there's also one of the reasons why I went back to the Netherlands. Um, Otherwise I probably would have still been abroad, uh, by now, but now I'm very happy to be back with this time especially, you know, to be around family and friends, uh, around this time.
[00:04:20] The main thing, what I want with this life is you know, to have the freedom and flexibility to work from anywhere whenever I want.
[00:04:26] So, um, I am looking to set up space in the Netherlands, um, You know, to settle here and still have the freedom to book a month to, uh, you know, to Bali, to Portugal or wherever it is. Um, When it's you know, you know, possible again, to you know, have the freedom to be able to work and live from wherever you feel happiest and most productive. And that's the main reason for this lifestyle.
[00:04:46]Isabelle Roughol: [00:04:46] um, I posted to my LinkedIn community that we were gonna talk and people were really interested. I got a lot of questions, uh, it seems to be um, something that really speaks to people. And I think especially right now, a lot of us have been you know, stuck in the same four walls for weeks or months. And there is definitely an eagerness to get out into the world, even if in a lot of places that's not really prudent just yet. Um,
[00:05:16] And also I think we've seen that working remotely is possible. And a lot of the managers and companies that didn't want you to, uh, were wrong because a lot of people have been doing it. It's not always easy. You know, There's a lot of personal circumstances that make it easy or not, but it is possible. Have you seen an uptick in people being curious about that and asking you questions and trying it for themselves?
[00:05:44]Mandy Fransz: [00:05:44] Oh, yes, definitely. Um, so when I quit two years ago, um, I used to work for, you know, for LinkedIn and I had an amazing experience with the company. I was pretty open, you know, if there were more opportunities at companies, uh, to work for a company as well. I even looked for uh, remote jobs at companies, but there just weren't any. That uh, also you know, pushed me more toward starting my own online business.
[00:06:07]Um, And, uh, since then you know, I've been sharing my story on LinkedIn and on a weekly basis, I posted um, blog posts, sharing my experiences of figuring out this whole remote work lifestyle. Um, And I just got a lot of people reaching out to me, uh, you know, with interest in remote work because I was sharing my journey.
[00:06:25]That's really confirmed for me that there's a lot of interest first of all, from a professional perspective, um, you know, um, people are really interested in having the freedom and flexibility to work from anywhere. Um, I think the most tricky part is that companies weren't ready for it. And I think now with the uh, whole situation, kind of forced remote work or forced work from home as I prefer to call it, um,, um, it's also kind of um, you know, uh, a positive side as well that now companies are forced to have this experience and to see what are the benefits and maybe the challenges for their employees.
[00:06:55] Isabelle Roughol: [00:06:55] Yeah, we're seeing companies -- and obviously it tends to start in the tech sector, but not only -- um, companies being very open about the fact that they're gonna remain remote into 2021 and beyond and give employees even the option to stay remote forever. Uh, And they're quite happy to reduce the amount that they're spending on rent
[00:07:21] as a result.
[00:07:24] Mandy Fransz: [00:07:24] Definitely. That's a big part as well. Like, I mean, there's so many benefits as well for companies, reduce real estate costs. Um, reduce carbon footprint, um, employee productivity...
[00:07:34] Isabelle Roughol: [00:07:34] So I got a lot of questions from the community that I'm going to put to you that are actually very concrete and very practical. People are sold on the idea, but they want to know how to do it. Um, And the first one um, was from Silvette actually, and it was, how do I do it? How do I know if it's for me uh, and get started? How do I know if I'm the right person to be a digital nomad?
[00:08:03]Mandy Fransz: [00:08:03] That's a good question. Um, So you never know it until you try, um, but of course you can already beforehand um, think about, you know, uh, what do you want to get out of this experience? Like, why do you want to be a digital nomad and what do you want to get out of this experience? So what really helped me was, um, uh, what I like to call a five-year remote career pyramid.
[00:08:22] So where do you see yourself in five years time? Um, you know, Um, If you envision your dream life at that moment in five years from now, where would you be working right now? Would you work for yourself or would you work for a company? Uh, Where would you be working you know, in terms of location? Um, And what does success look like for you?
[00:08:41] I did this exercise, that was five years ago approximately today, and my five-year goal was really to be location-independent and to be an online entrepreneur and have the freedom and flexibility to work from anywhere.
[00:08:54]Um, And that just made those jumps to get to the five-year goal so much easier um, because I knew that I wanted to eventually run my own business, for example. So now, um, when I got the opportunity, when I got my first freelance clients, I knew that um, you know, that would take me faster to my five-year goal instead of taking a job opportunity at a company, for example.
[00:09:17]For your followers, if they go to my um, "Rise of remote work" newsletter, there's a remote work checklist as well, if remote work is something for you. So that's really the more technical questions, you know, such as, are you able to work in busy environments? Um, you know, Are you willing to work maybe on weekends or late evenings? Because if you work with a team in a different time zone, then this is something you should be more flexible towards than if you work for a company from 9 to 5 for example . So that might be a helpful checklist as well .
[00:09:46] Isabelle Roughol: [00:09:46] Right. And that's obviously a lot easier uh, when you're young and you know, without children and um, with a Western passport to be able to get through a lot of borders. What are the demographics of the people um, that you're seeing within the digital nomad space? Which is a question I got from uh, Gianluca as well.
[00:10:08] Mandy Fransz: [00:10:08] Yeah, that's totally valid, valid question, of course. Um, But from my experience um, you know, working remotely, seeing all these people, but also from this group, so the remote workers on LinkedIn group, there's a lot of families and actually older you know, people that have like families or maybe, you know, uh, um, they already have a longer term career and have this lifestyle as well.
[00:10:28] And actually, so I did this online survey with this group a couple of weeks ago and there's more people that have more than 10 years of experience, um, than um, you know, shorter than that. So there's actually quite a few remote workers that uh, have longterm experience or tend to have more families as well.
[00:10:45]And actually, uh, I saw some remote workers that you know, work from a van with a family, um, throughout the country. I think it's really about again, defining what success, you know, what does that look like for you as a digital nomad? if that's with a family, um, how then can you make it work for you?
[00:11:00] So it's really personal for everyone. Um, So with a family you might not want to you know, travel around every month or go to a far place like Asia or whatever. Um, But maybe you want to stay in the US but just have you know, the freedom to work from a van and uh, you know, do that with family.
[00:11:16] Or maybe like myself: now I'm in my home country, but I want to have the flexibility to you know, um, take holidays. So last week, I was on a holiday, with my family as well. Um, you know, Next month we were planning to go to Spain, if that's possible due to the circumstances.
[00:11:30]Um, But that's remote work as well, you know, having a home base, but then being able to travel on the weekends or maybe a month for some place else. So it's really flexible. It's really, you can design your own lifestyle. know, You don't have to be a full time, digital nomad and traveling to different places every week or month. Um, You can stay one year in a place, um, or you know, stay in your home base and travel from there. So, um, yeah, again, think about the question: what does that look like for you, that successful you know, life as a digital nomad, and really map that out.
[00:11:58]Isabelle Roughol: [00:11:58] That's a really important point that it's not a one size fits all. I know a woman who's going around the world on a bicycle and hasn't had a steady home uh, in years. Uh, And then, you know, you have people who you know, might have actually a home base and just be you know, taking shorter trips here or there Um,
[00:12:21] and continue to work during that time.
[00:12:24] Mandy Fransz: [00:12:24] Yeah, exactly. Definitely. So for me having experienced both, for one and a half years, I was really a full time, digital nomad traveling, um, you know, here and there. Uh, But now I don't really consider myself a digital nomad anymore. More like a part-time digital nomad I still have the flexibility to work from anywhere um, but I would now, you know, take it more under the umbrella of remote worker. There's so many different terms, how to describe this lifestyle, you know. Um, So digital nomad can be one way to describe it, remote worker, location-independent professional, but yes, like you said, it's really, you know, tailored to your needs.
[00:12:59] If you can make, you know, the lifestyle work then you can design it the way you want and the way yet it works best for you.
[00:13:06] Isabelle Roughol: [00:13:06] Yeah. And speaking as a, as a bit of a wanderer myself, there are phases, right? um, I was moving around a lot and I was living in Cambodia and then I decided to return to France and I genuinely thought that I was done and that lasted about five years. And then, uh, when I turned 30, the itch came back and I moved to Australia. Um, and now I've been in London for four years, and I'm starting to get that itch again. I'm fighting it a little bit. I'm like, you know, "you're a grown woman, stop it." But um, I definitely understand the, uh, the itch.
[00:13:44] Mandy Fransz: [00:13:44] Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel you. I think that itch is a, it's something that's in you and it won't go back. And once you've seen the world, there's so many beautiful places to see in this world. Um, I've traveled to 35 plus countries by now, I lost count, but um, for now, like I said, you know, um, I am happy to be where I am because of the situation, happy to be around family, but I'm sure that itch will come back and then I'm happy that I have you know,, uh, the freedom to work from anywhere.
[00:14:13] Isabelle Roughol: [00:14:13] Yeah,
[00:14:13] 35. And how old are you?
[00:14:16] Mandy Fransz: [00:14:16] 29
[00:14:16] Isabelle Roughol: [00:14:16] Okay. Yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty good. That's that's more than me actually. I don't have that many countries on my list because I feel like I keep going back to the same ones. So I've been in the US you know, East to West, North to South, so many times. Um, but also I think I'm a serial monogamist when it comes to countries. So I'm the kind of nomad who moves somewhere and stays there for two years and really
[00:14:42] gets the lay of the land and then moves on. So, um, as you said, many,
[00:14:46] many different variations of, of what you can do.
[00:14:50] Mandy Fransz: [00:14:50] Exactly. Yeah. And that's the interesting thing, right? Like it's not just, you know, you're a digital nomad if you're a millennial working from Bali, that's like the typical stereotype of being a digital nomad.
[00:15:01] Isabelle Roughol: [00:15:01] With a big Instagram following.
[00:15:02]Mandy Fransz: [00:15:02] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think that's super interesting as well, because I am active both on Instagram and LinkedIn.
[00:15:10] But the LinkedIn community of remote work is just so different than the Instagram community. So from the online survey, the majority of the group works for a company uh, remotely, uh, versus from Instagram there's more people that um, you know, started their own business, uh, you know, work from all these Instagram-worthy places.
[00:15:27]Um, But yeah, there's a big difference in there as well I think. There's just so many different variations. It's not just that stereotype digital nomad um, but there's you know, tons of opportunities to make it the way that works for you. And uh, yeah, glad to hear for you that you've been living in London for the past couple of years.
[00:15:43] Isabelle Roughol: [00:15:43] Yeah, it's, it's been four now, which is starting to be very sedentary. Um But actually that's gonna, that's gonna lead me to my next set of practical questions, which I got from a lot of people -- um, Shereen, Danielle, Hayley -- um, and it's about the administrative practicalities: visas, tax, um, health insurance... um, Because the reason I'm staying in the UK right now is that if I leave, I lose my status because of Brexit and all that.
[00:16:11]Um, And you can't just show up in a country and start working, even if you know, you're doing your own business digitally, um, you can't just start working on a tourist visa. I mean, you can kind of sneakily do it, if you're just on your laptop by the pool... How does that work?
[00:16:28]Mandy Fransz: [00:16:28] Yes I received that question a lot as well. Um, And again, this depends, I think on whether you have your own business or work for a company. So for me in terms of taxes, so I am registered in my home country and my business is as well. So I pay taxes in the Netherlands and everything's registered in the Netherlands. Um, but if you work remote for a company, you know, really depends on your contract. So that's really case-specific. And I know that that's one of the challenges that companies face with making the transition to remote work, um, you know, how to arrange those contracts and how to do the taxes, uh, et cetera. Um,
[00:17:01] Isabelle Roughol: [00:17:01] Yeah, that's definitely a topic where, where I would recommend people speak to accountants and immigration lawyers, um, and do this properly because it's, it's gotten to such a level of complexity. Um, That's definitely one where you, where you want professional help.
[00:17:18] Mandy Fransz: [00:17:18] Definitely. Yeah. And, um, it's really um, specific per country.
[00:17:22] Isabelle Roughol: [00:17:22] Definitely as someone who at one point was paying taxes in France, Australia, and the UK at the same time, it's not fun. Um, But there are, there are countries who I think are a bit friendlier to, to the digital nomad lifestyle. Like I was just reading thanks to Yusof, one of my followers, that uh, Barbados is, is setting up a system that lets you come in for a year and do your thing in Barbados, which sounds lovely.
[00:17:51]Mandy Fransz: [00:17:51] yeah, that doesn't sound bad actually um,
[00:17:55] Isabelle Roughol: [00:17:55] I got a lot of questions too about business strategies from George and Ohekuru. People who I think just assumed that going remote means going freelance and starting your own business. And we saw that that wasn't the case, but if you are, um, and you've done that yourself, how does it work? Do you get a few steady, reliable clients? Do you just spin short-term clients? Do you set it all up before leaving? Um,
[00:18:23]Mandy Fransz: [00:18:23] yeah. Great question. And I love that. So what really kicked off for me, what I would definitely advise for anyone starting out is network. So both networking online and building relationships.
[00:18:35]In my coworking space in Bali, um, I didn't have anything set up. I didn't even know that I wanted to start a business. Um, But I was just networking with people that I thought were interesting . And um, you know, I was just talking about, you know, my skills and offering my skills as well, you know, helping people with any questions about LinkedIn. Um, And, uh, yeah, it gave me my first few clients. So that really helped me to kick off really networking with people and, um, You know, offering value, uh, as well. So I think that's what's very underestimated, the power that lies within your own network. Um, you know,
[00:19:03] Isabelle Roughol: [00:19:03] That's probably why in your group you have a lot of people who are, you know, 10-plus years into their career because in fact, that's a lot easier to do when you've established your skills and established your reputation a little bit, and you know more about yourself and what it is that you have to offer.
[00:19:20] Mandy Fransz: [00:19:21] Taking back to what I said earlier, um, thinking about that five year career plan is super important. Um, And that's what I now do for myself as well.
[00:19:28] So, uh, you know, uh, have this five-year career plan in mind, but then identifying those skills that you need to get there. So for me, it was, you know, I wanted to be an online entrepreneur. What are the skills that I needed? So it was, you know, I still needed to learn about financial profit and loss statements. Uh, I was in a um, sales role so I already learned about lead generation, but um, you know, really business development. How do you start a business? Um, Content marketing, um, you know, accounting, uh, budgeting, all those kinds of things. So I did online courses. I networked with people. I attended events and workshops to really build those online skills that would help me get to my five-year career goal.
[00:20:03] That doesn't have to be expensive, you can maybe ask mentors in your community, in your network, uh, people you know, that are good in a specific skill, um, you know, and to upskill in that way. So that's why, again, the relationships are very important.
[00:20:16] I kind of started you know, without a plan in the first year. And the first year was really figuring out along the way. you know, um, I had ups and downs. Um, I didn't have a clear vision for my company itself. I just, I was freelancing but it was a lot of hard work as well. um, you know, Back then I had multiple, like longer term clients as well, um, but I was trading my time for money um, and even though, you know, the pay was pretty good on an hourly rate, my bigger dream was to build really an online business that would give me you know, the um, um, location independence and uh, time freedom. Um, you know, More passive income, building passive income streams, and that's really what I've been working on in the past year.
[00:20:54] So, uh, last year I hired an online business coach, um, to really transform my you know, freelancing business in a real uh, online business. So now, um, I've been working on digital products on my website. I published an ebook, for example, that I sell on my website. I do online master classes that I record and uh, you know, can uh, sell online as well. Um, and really scale more to, you know, now I'm planning to launch um, an online course soon and a career program. Really think more about building an online business more in a bigger sense than just a freelancer.
[00:21:24]If that's your goal, then that's something you need to work towards too, and, you know, with small steps. You know, Start out with freelancing, gain skills in the beginning, and then slowly, you know, build it up from, from there.
[00:21:34] Isabelle Roughol: [00:21:35] To conclude, and it's a question I got from Kate as well, who was wondering, um, you know, when you're on the road so much -- and again, you know, looking back to for you 2018, 2019 -- how do you create a sense of home? Do you need a place that is home? Is home just you know, back in the Netherlands with your parents? How do you create that feeling of safety and belonging that you get when you're home?
[00:22:02] Mandy Fransz: [00:22:02] Yeah. Loneliness or that feeling of belonging is one of the top challenges as remote workers, especially, you know, if you go out there and go travel by yourself, um, it can be very lonely. So, for example, Bali, I was uh, by myself, um, booked a ticket there. And I remember um, the first four days I felt okay. I was like, uh, you know, on top of the world, uh, for the first time, um, uh, well, like one of the first times by myself in Bali. Um, And, uh, then the fourth day I was like, okay, now I could see some people, I was starting you know, to miss this sense of belonging or you know, community. Um, And that's when I decided to join a coworking space. And the first day I met some amazing people and we hung out you know, for the rest of the month that I was there. You know, There's so many people like you, or like us out there, especially if you go to those remote work friendly places. So that's definitely something that I recommend. you know, um, There's no need to be afraid that you will be alone, because there are so many people that are kind of alone in those countries . So if you want, there's always a possibility you know, to have that community and to find like-minded people.
[00:22:59]And also I do a lot of research into my accommodation. I do want to feel, you know, at home. For example, last year I was um, in Columbia for six months. I lived with a roommate who also came from the Netherlands by just by chance. Um, and we teamed up and found an apartment together. And we searched 30 apartments, AirBnBs before you know, making a decision of where we were going to settle.
[00:23:23] Isabelle Roughol: [00:23:23] Yeah, I've noticed that um, I nest really quickly wherever I go. So, you know, I've moved around a lot to quite a few different flats, um, but within days of moving somewhere, there are family pictures on the wall and photos of travels and souvenirs. Um, So wherever I am, it's very me very quickly and that helps make it home, uh, even if it's very far from actual home. There's also usually French food in the fridge. That helps too. If I can find it, which nowadays you can find it everywhere.
[00:23:59] Mandy Fransz: [00:23:59] Yeah, no, exactly. And that's actually a really good point. Um, I always bring, um, Dutch, you know, so we have Hagelslag.
[00:24:06] I'm not sure if you know about that. It's like what we put on our bread, it's uh, sprinkles, chocolate sprinkles. And those kind of small things like chocolate sprinkles, um, , um, um, also peanut butter for example, um, I bring with me as well to feel more at home. Um, and also pictures, like you said. So I always bring pictures of my family and I put them on my shelf. It's made me feel more at home as well. So that definitely helps.
[00:24:27]Isabelle Roughol: [00:24:27] I always think back to um, Samwise Gamgee, the hobbit who takes a little box of salt from the Shire all the way to the end of his journey in Mordor. Um, And yeah, it's having those tiny comforts from home. And I always think of people like you and me kind of as the Frodos, you know, to the hobbits, you know. We're part of home, but we also kind of You know, step outside of it, um, you know, minus the whole fighting evil and saving the world bit, but there is a bit of that.
[00:25:03] Mandy Fransz: [00:25:03] Yeah.
[00:25:03] Isabelle Roughol: [00:25:03] Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and your advice. we're heading into the summer and, we can get on the road a little bit .
[00:25:11] Mandy Fransz: [00:25:11] yeah. I think this is the best opportunity or excuse to be a tourist in your own country. So, you know, like I said, it's not the stereotype that you have to go to Bali to be a digital nomad. You can you know, uh, make this lifestyle work for you, even from your home countries.
[00:25:25] Isabelle Roughol: [00:25:27] Amen to that. I've got my camping gear in the boot of my car and I'm out. There are stunning national parks right here in the UK.
[00:25:36] I want to thank Mandy Fransz. The newsletter will have links to everything she mentioned and resources to get you started as a digital nomad, should you wish. You can subscribe and read all the archives at borderlinepod.com, where you also can reach me, leave a voicemail and find all the social accounts. Special thanks to another nomad, Alexander Besant.
[00:25:57] This is it for the short first season of Borderline. I'm taking a few weeks for what little travel we can do in 2020, but also to prepare a bigger and better Borderline for the autumn.
[00:26:07] When I got the idea for this podcast, I wanted to start right away, produce a few episodes and see the response. I learned a lot and mostly I learned that I love it. So I want to build something that lasts. I'm taking the time to plan an awesome season two, but also to figure out how this can be a viable business going forward. Reach out and let me know what you liked, what you didn't and what else you want to see.
[00:26:28] I'm your host, Isabelle Roughol, and this is Borderline. I'll talk to you in September. Until then, wear your masks.
Get the newsletter
Sign up to receive the latest episodes and best articles in your inbox.